Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

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alanx
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby alanx » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:19 am

Feone wrote:
cc_Darkis wrote:I'll take another deep dive on this...bad thing is there are a lot of folks hoarding keys and just sitting on them. Not even using em.


Their current scarcity is due to the nerf with selling keys.

Not because some evil players are hoarding them.


That's is not entirely true. Users have posted screenshots in the past showing that they have over 500-1000+ keys that they wont use since they have all the BP already. There are people who try to control market prices. Without getting into a debate over it, @darkis : can you please look into this issue and remedy it? Example. set the max key count not to exceed beyond 100 or 150? This should remedy a lot of issues and help clean up the key clutter. Those who don't hoard shouldn't get impacted anyway so I don't see why anyone would object to it unless they actually hoard.

Niexist
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Niexist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:57 pm

Let the free market reign, and this problem fixes itself.

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Shiroe
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Shiroe » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:21 am

Niexist wrote:Let the free market reign, and this problem fixes itself.

Aww, but I don't want to change my newbie advice to something like:
"Stay solo for about 1-2 weeks as you tradehouse sell your special order keys (probably 10-25M gold for a wooden key, others scaling similarly [1]) and town hall boost your furniture upgrades all to level 12+. By the end of that timeframe other city investments you did from leftover gold probably allowed you to unlock all resources and maybe even all workers and heroes. If you now join together with 24 other similar players, you should have a pretty high levels city. Since special orders start to slow, gold flow will probably drop like a rock, but your furniture levels should be high enough for that not to be of too much trouble for a while. Keep selling those 200K Iron Woods and Burning Embers to keep your gold flow up a bit, complementing them with making some precrafts late game players need. 95+% of items are super unprofitable to craft compared to selling away their artifacts [2], so only do it if it leads to unlocking a precraft that actually makes you gold."

(and scrapping gem price upper caps as part of free market would also mean the return of gem selling websites using a low level item to shift 1000+ gems to a "customer" of theirs...)



[1] I used gem price range over the past months, multiplied by about 2-3M as a guess what gold price could be without a cap.
[2] most items right now already are unprofitable to craft compared to selling the artefacts, but at least it isn't something like a factor 5-10...
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

Zorblak
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Zorblak » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:54 am

Niexist wrote:Let the free market reign, and this problem fixes itself.


But clearly the free market is not solving this problem. If there are people sitting on hoards of keys, then we need some kind of incentive for them to sell those keys. Apparently the gems and/or gold they could receive for those keys are not sufficient inducement - they would rather have absolutely nothing at all than sell the keys for gems or gold.

I've noticed as well that in the last few weeks, gem prices for iron keys have risen to the point of absurdity. For many months, I'd been steadily able to buy iron keys at 80 gems a pop, as I've been trying to amass all the iron chest BPs. Now they're going for 98-100 gems each, which is basically the same price as I can just open the chests for directly. So people have driven the prices up high enough that it doesn't make sense to buy the keys any more. This doesn't benefit the people who need keys (because there's now no reason to buy keys) or the people who have keys (because they will get fewer buyers for their keys at those prices).

Niexist
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Niexist » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:46 pm

Zorblak wrote:
Niexist wrote:Let the free market reign, and this problem fixes itself.


But clearly the free market is not solving this problem. If there are people sitting on hoards of keys, then we need some kind of incentive for them to sell those keys. Apparently the gems and/or gold they could receive for those keys are not sufficient inducement - they would rather have absolutely nothing at all than sell the keys for gems or gold.

I've noticed as well that in the last few weeks, gem prices for iron keys have risen to the point of absurdity. For many months, I'd been steadily able to buy iron keys at 80 gems a pop, as I've been trying to amass all the iron chest BPs. Now they're going for 98-100 gems each, which is basically the same price as I can just open the chests for directly. So people have driven the prices up high enough that it doesn't make sense to buy the keys any more. This doesn't benefit the people who need keys (because there's now no reason to buy keys) or the people who have keys (because they will get fewer buyers for their keys at those prices).


I'm not sure if this is a serious reply or not. Free market would be removing the gold/gem cap on keys.

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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Ronin » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:32 pm

Zorblak wrote:
Niexist wrote:Let the free market reign, and this problem fixes itself.


But clearly the free market is not solving this problem. If there are people sitting on hoards of keys, then we need some kind of incentive for them to sell those keys. Apparently the gems and/or gold they could receive for those keys are not sufficient inducement - they would rather have absolutely nothing at all than sell the keys for gems or gold.

I've noticed as well that in the last few weeks, gem prices for iron keys have risen to the point of absurdity. For many months, I'd been steadily able to buy iron keys at 80 gems a pop, as I've been trying to amass all the iron chest BPs. Now they're going for 98-100 gems each, which is basically the same price as I can just open the chests for directly. So people have driven the prices up high enough that it doesn't make sense to buy the keys any more. This doesn't benefit the people who need keys (because there's now no reason to buy keys) or the people who have keys (because they will get fewer buyers for their keys at those prices).


Someone looking to open iron chests will be willing to buy an iron keys at 98-99 gems as that's a 1-2% discount over straight gem opening. I am very confused by this post.

alanx
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby alanx » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:16 am

The only incentive for people to stop hoarding and start pushing keys back into the market would be the announcement that the key cap will come into effect.
free market isn't a solution to anything. Its a bigger menace. There will always be a cap coz there's a limit to how many numbers you can type...it would be ridiculously huge but it would still be there.
The current gold/gem caps for requests even if you have to be in a queue, as long as you've set max price, you're guaranteed getting those items at the very least assuming you're willing to wait for a long time depending on the item supply/demand ratio.

Feone
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Feone » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:30 pm

Again, Darkis and alanx, your claims (players hoarding keys being the root cause of key requests not filling) make no sense.
  • Players have been trying to manipulate the market since forever, no changes there.
  • Keys enter the game spread amongst many players fairly evenly through raids and bulk orders. No magical key vacuum to manipulate the market with.
  • The shortage became significantly worse right after a patch making it harder for a large portion of the player base to sell their keys.

Cloudcade has released a whole slew of changes focussed on making gems scarcer, and more needed.
  • Killed the main endgame gem source with key trading.
  • Made it harder in general for lower levels to trade away their gems.
  • Increased prices on various upgrades.
  • Marketed gems more aggressively. (Buy gems popup for a month anyone?)

Gem pricy, gold cheap, good for business.
Don't expect any attempt from Cloudcade to change this. (Besides, key selling was broken, if they do change it they should just give us other options for getting keys/gems.)

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Shiroe
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Re: Waiting for gold keys from December 2016. Who's longer?

Postby Shiroe » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 am

Feone wrote:The shortage became significantly worse right after a patch making it harder for a large portion of the player base to sell their keys. [/list]

I guess you're right that "drawn and quartered" is significantly worse than "bleeding to death".
It had already hit the "months" delay because of rising demand and not as fast rising supply, then CC put key flipping out of its misery by lowering supply. (sorry, "key market was great until CC killed it" misrepresentations just annoy me; it was already on a steep decline.)

Cloudcade has released a whole slew of changes focussed on making gems scarcer, and more needed.
  • Killed the main endgame gem source with key trading.
  • Made it harder in general for lower levels to trade away their gems.
  • Increased prices on various upgrades.
  • Marketed gems more aggressively. (Buy gems popup for a month anyone?)

Gem pricy, gold cheap, good for business.
Don't expect any attempt from Cloudcade to change this. (Besides, key selling was broken, if they do change it they should just give us other options for getting keys/gems.)

@1: I really want them to replace this dumb gold -flip-> gems -> chest opening mechanic by some other way to turn gold into progress for later game players. :| (yes, I annoyingly am flipping chests to to do something useful with the gold left over after doing my part in keeping the city boosted :( )
@2: I don't necessarily find it a bad thing to prevent newer players from going for the 'fast "high" of lots of gold by trading away later game progress'. Besides, the desire to trade away gems/keys for newer players mostly exists because late/end game players with their near infinite gold create the overinflated price demand (point 1)... ;)
@3: too lazy to look back my forum comment on it, but IIRC it was a small buff to craft slots, about neutral for quest and big nerf to trade slots. (ugh, not awake enough yet; thought there was a 4th slot upgrade that also got a neutral-ish change, but can't think what it was)
@4 - popup: for that one I personally go with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". Some of the last few updates have kind of indicated that things like package start and end dates are very likely hardcoded into the client app, so likely such a "oh, let's add a gem advert for new players." with a typo causing it to show to everyone, hardcoded into the app will lead to it showing until the next app update. Of course a client app should never have such things hardcoded in, but fetch them from the server-side database, so they can be turned off/on/changed as easily as these "player appreciation" gifts...
(I wish there would be a knowledge base of pitfalls to avoid for new game companies; I'm sure "for a client-server game, don't hardcode anything into the client app" and "for a multi-platform game, don't sole-ly rely on doing updates through the stores" would be on there... ) </ramble>
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)


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