Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

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Wraith
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Wraith » Tue May 16, 2017 4:07 am

People need to stop bringing up "balance issues" with skills at legendary. There's no competition in this game, except the arena but skills have no effect there. What old and F2P players mean by "it will break balance" is the fact that newer players will be able to do the same things as them. That's all, old players just want to hold newer players back for no reason except their ego.

None of this matters anyway. The fact is, with skills at mythical packages are worthless. Nobody wants to pay $15 for a skill that will take them one month to access in the game.

Skills at legendary was not my preferred solution to this problem either, but it's better than nothing and the balance argument is nonsense. Also, it's much faster to move skills to legendary than it is to implement reduced fusion times or anything else, because skills at legendary requires far less rebalancing than modifying the speed at which you can fuse legendary and mythical items. This change is long overdue and I'm happy we're getting it soon rather than another solution at Christmas.

Older players and F2P players should be happy that some us are supporting the game by buying these packages. Without us, there would be no updates and the servers would shut down sooner than later. You might want to think about that before asking that packages remain worthless a while longer, instead of giving in to pointless jealousy.

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Shiroe
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Shiroe » Tue May 16, 2017 9:22 am

Wraith wrote:People need to stop bringing up "balance issues" with skills at legendary. There's no competition in this game, except the arena but skills have no effect there. What old and F2P players mean by "it will break balance" is the fact that newer players will be able to do the same things as them. That's all, old players just want to hold newer players back for no reason except their ego.

Nah, you'd end up with a "these team builds are quite doable for all and this other group of team builds is very doable for paying players, but near impossible for free players". It's not as de-motivational as "pay up or your upgrades take months" or "pay up or get 'farmed' daily" of the real p2w games, but still...

None of this matters anyway. The fact is, with skills at mythical packages are worthless. Nobody wants to pay $15 for a skill that will take them one month to access in the game.

Yep, the vast majority of seasonal packages are probably 90+% cosmetic, 10-% gameplay advantage. A League of Legends skin is 100% cosmetic, yet those get bought a lot...
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

Niexist
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Niexist » Tue May 16, 2017 10:11 am

I think monthly packages being mythical is perfectly balanced. The good packages where you can get stuff early at legendary is supposed to be the 40-50 dollar packs. If you make monthly pack skills available at legendary you really will take the value out of the big packages..

Kim!
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Kim! » Tue May 16, 2017 11:17 am

People need to stop bringing up "balance issues" with skills at legendary. There's no competition in this game, except the arena but skills have no effect there. What old and F2P players mean by "it will break balance" is the fact that newer players will be able to do the same things as them. That's all, old players just want to hold newer players back for no reason except their ego.

My teams are pretty solid already and I've always been happy to help out other players, but balance issues are incredibly demotivating. It makes players quit. It also comes up fairly regularly on chat, new players will ask if this game is p2w, if it's worth trying f2p, how soon they'll hit paywalls, etc. Right now I'm happy to tell them that yes, the game is pretty fair (though packs contain very shiny things)... but make packs too OP and that will no longer be the case.

(Wall of text time, go go go!)

Let's look at team building for a second, assuming the goal is 4 full revive teams:

---------

If a paying player has...
Jaguar Helm (Hat, Revive 2/Mythic)
Bunny Harp (Instrument, Revive 2/Mythic)
Heart Ring (Ring, Revive 2/Mythic)
Hallowed Skull (Helm, Revive 2/Mythic)

Assume all of these are now dropped to Legendary.

Every hero can wear a hat or helm, that's a total of 240% revive.
18 heroes can wear either a ring or an instrument, that's another 180% revive.
And built-in skills give 30% revive.

That's a total of 450% revive, so plenty of slot options to rearrange etc. That's 4 full revive teams that would require 37 legendaries and no chest BPs for revive. Additionally half of those items go in slots that don't have much competition (support/energetic don't need those slots), and they're all high enough level to give a big power boost.

--------

For f2p or newer players, you're looking at something more like this build (stolen from Wing, thanks Wing!).

For that build, you would need 8 revive BPs:
Kos (Revive 2/Leg, Dwarvish)
Divine Ray (Revive 1/Leg, Magic)
AA Gloves (Revive 2/Mythic, Raid)
Angelic Strings (Revive 1/Leg, Magic)
Oracle/Prayer Ring (Revive 1/Leg, Magic/Gold)
Lich's Heart (Revive 1/Epic, Magic)
God's Essence (Revive 1/Leg, Magic)
Divine Tome (Revive 1/Leg, Magic)

A majority of those come from magic, which I'd consider the hardest chest to get a specific BP from. You'll also need a bunch of wood-gold BPs to make the rest of the build work. And apart from the two rings, there's really no wiggle room to be missing one of those prints.

Anyways, to make those teams work, you'd need 7 chest revive BPs, 14 high level mythics, and 44 legendaries - for a total of 58 revive items.

-------

To recap, with packs dropped to leg:
4 full revive w/ last couple seasonal: 0 high level chest blueprints, 37 legendaries

4 full revive without those packs: 7 specific high level chest BPs, 14 mythics, 44 legendaries

For paying players that list could easily be done in a couple months, maybe closer to weeks if you're ambitious/bloop. For those who don't have those packs (paying or otherwise) you're probably looking at a year+ to find all those blueprints and then another year of fusing mythic AA gloves (since paying players say it takes a month to fuse a mythic). And don't forget - packs also give better slot options, support 2 BPs, and more space to add loot gear and power boosters.

If someone only has 1-2 of those packs, teams would still much easier. Having a revive 2/leg hat or helm would let you swap out all the mythic AA gloves in that f2p build, significantly shortening the craft/fuse times and giving some wiggle room on missing blueprints.

But for f2p players, paying players who skipped that month, and new paying players, they'll be told that "oh yeah, full revive is easy if you got that pack two months ago" while they'll be stuck opening hundreds of high level chests and will need to fuse a pile of mythics for the same/slightly worse results.



That's why we talk about balance. It's not fair when something is easy for one player and would take years for others - especially from packs that are only available for 2 weeks during the year. The bigger that gap gets, the more likely it is for non-whales to quit. And don't forget that f2p players can turn into paying ones later on, there's a lot of "I used to be f2p but after a couple months I bought a pack/someone bought one for me" stories out there.

This change is long overdue and I'm happy we're getting it soon rather than another solution at Christmas.

Darkis hasn't actually said anything about mythic vs legendary, just that there may be some sort of changes to packs. I assume his comment about "That was on the sheet I posted, you have to really look hard thou!" was aimed at my question about roadmap vs "next moth's patch", since that's what's written on the sheet in the first post. They've also seemed pretty cautious about rebalancing so far (look at the tiny shifts to roulette and chest odds) so I wouldn't expect anything overly drastic right now.

Wraith
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Wraith » Wed May 17, 2017 2:23 am

I'm not going to quote everyone but what you've all said is that non-paying players would feel that the game is easier for paying players. Despite the lack of competition between players, F2P players would be demotivated because paying players can do things faster/easier.

You guys are just confirming what I said: this is jealousy and ego, not real imbalance. I'm sorry but when you want to hold people down, not because their success holds you back but just because it makes you feel bad, that's jealousy. I see where this community stands now: paying players should just fork over money to keep the servers running for everyone, but they shouldn't ask for anything in return, not even the ability to progress faster in a game with no competition.

Kim! wrote:Darkis hasn't actually said anything about mythic vs legendary, just that there may be some sort of changes to packs. I assume his comment about "That was on the sheet I posted, you have to really look hard thou!" was aimed at my question about roadmap vs "next moth's patch", since that's what's written on the sheet in the first post. They've also seemed pretty cautious about rebalancing so far (look at the tiny shifts to roulette and chest odds) so I wouldn't expect anything overly drastic right now.


Yeah, Darkis is too often being vague, probably because Cloudcade won't let him say anything to us despite claiming the opposite. We've been promised clarifications about fusion time changes multiple times over the last few months now. Nothing has changed. The next time this community gets upset at the lack of updates and package sales drop, they'll probably throw him under the bus like they did Tadaaah and claim it was all his fault.

wigi
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby wigi » Wed May 17, 2017 2:25 am

Yep, the vast majority of seasonal packages are probably 90+% cosmetic, 10-% gameplay advantage. A League of Legends skin is 100% cosmetic, yet those get bought a lot...


League of legends has 500M players. So even if only 1% of the player base uses money for cosmetics it would be a lot of money. Also LOL is pure PVP game, so buying power would be bigger no no. There are articles that shows that only 2.2% of players ever pay anything in F2P games. 53% of money spending happens first 7 days.

Steam shows that this game has 1000 players per day. Now lets say this game has 100k players in all platforms. That would mean than there are 2000 paying players. Cloudcade seems to have at least 9 workers (based from their website) That would mean that yearly income needs to be something like 400k to just to pay all the bills. So 2000 people need to pay at least 400k for every year to keep this game going. That would mean 200$ for each paying customer per year.

Now this game has lot's of monetizing problems. Like Monthly packages are worthless, Gems are too pricey. Chest are not worth opening by buying gems. (How many of you actually buy gems to open chests?).

Here are few suggestions to how to fix this mess.

1. Drop package item skills to legendary, but also put those BP:s into Primal chests or event chest, so there are chance to get them just by playing. (package Bp's could be more rare than normal ones etc.)

2. Replace artifacts from chests with shopkeeper cosmetics. That would be alternative way to get them. That would give people other reason to open chest than BP's

3. Replace gem prices from refill, repair and healing to gold. That would make gold more valuable.

4. make regular chest more accessible by playing (maybe even offer keys with gold price? Like iron key 100M, gold key for 300M and Magic key for 1G?). Make events that gives different type of chest with special loots. Similar to overwatch. This could boost gem sells, but pricing them correctly is a key here. if they are too expensive then nobody would buy them and whole event is pointless.

5. Add packages that speed progress, but are not necessary for progress. Like legendary resource bins that gives every resources, making it faster to craft. Second fusion cauldron with 2 slots. 4th mana/jewler bin, better tables, Worker with high mastery, Resource bin that gives random key every day. Something that is highly desirable, but not necessary needed for progress. Most of these would help both new and old players, so they are valuable in all levels! Most of the current packages are only valuable if you are near endgame and can craft mythicks.

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Shiroe
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Shiroe » Wed May 17, 2017 3:09 am

wigi wrote:Steam shows that this game has 1000 players per day. Now lets say this game has 100k players in all platforms. That would mean than there are 2000 paying players. Cloudcade seems to have at least 9 workers (based from their website) That would mean that yearly income needs to be something like 400k to just to pay all the bills. So 2000 people need to pay at least 400k for every year to keep this game going. That would mean 200$ for each paying customer per year.

Don't forget the gem ads on mobile. Per mobile player there can be a few dozen of those per day, so that should be a decent source of income (I've only once seen a Shop Heroes video in other games, so I expect they're turning those into money, not swapping them for videos in other games)

5. Add packages that speed progress, but are not necessary for progress. Like legendary resource bins that gives every resources, making it faster to craft. Second fusion cauldron with 2 slots. 4th mana/jewler bin, better tables, Worker with high mastery, Resource bin that gives random key every day. Something that is highly desirable, but not necessary needed for progress. Most of these would help both new and old players, so they are valuable in all levels! Most of the current packages are only valuable if you are near endgame and can craft mythicks.

Well, with stateful games like this an addition that might seem small could turn into the next "mass key flipping" in half a year. If that one thing was only in 1 or more seasonal packages, you'd likely get more complaints than on the original "no-precraft" Ocarina beta image or when the first 2015 seasonal packages started getting re-released... So we end up with things like 5% craft/quest on non-seasonal or 1% craft/quest on seasonal, since those aren't too likely to mess things up big time into things like "oops, you've outpaced our content creation, so the lvl 40 to 50 upgrade gets recolored items, since we didn't have time to draw new items".
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

wigi
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby wigi » Wed May 17, 2017 3:48 am

Well, with stateful games like this an addition that might seem small could turn into the next "mass key flipping" in half a year. If that one thing was only in 1 or more seasonal packages, you'd likely get more complaints than on the original "no-precraft" Ocarina beta image or when the first 2015 seasonal packages started getting re-released... So we end up with things like 5% craft/quest on non-seasonal or 1% craft/quest on seasonal, since those aren't too likely to mess things up big time into things like "oops, you've outpaced our content creation, so the lvl 40 to 50 upgrade gets recolored items, since we didn't have time to draw new items".


Thats true, but you fix them when they happen. You can't just stay still, because something may happen in the future. They did fix that key flipping, but did it change the game better or worse? Is there more player now than there was when people was able to flip keys and open more chests? In one case that flipping was bad. New players opened less chests and end up selling all their keys, but other hand it also told them that they could get keys if they play and progress to end game! So there was something to wait.

Now who would even sell any gold or iron keys? When you have opened 25 gold chests then that 90M is not so much gold anymore. I started few months a ago and I have opened ~5 golden chests and 5 iron chests, but I already have more than 100m Gold.. So there are no way I ever sell any iron or gold key for gold! If this is current trend then there are no key sellers. That is one reason why those 6 month old request are not ever gonna fill up. Maybe that one person who is first in the line (who has probably request 100 keys) might get them in next 4 years. Everyone else needs to buy them with gems. (and those key seller's who sell them for gold are probably bloops who doesn't need gold or gems :D)

You can think it this way... iron/gold key has high gem value. If you need gold it's much better to sell your keys for gems and then use those gems to magic chest or something else that gives you 10x more gold than selling that key would. So there are no reason ever to sell keys for gold.

I think those speed progress type packages should be available all the time. Not once a year. Monthly packages has their own place. They are made to force people to use money before they are gone. They will have descent value once they adjusts skills to legendary. However I think events could be better than monthly packages.

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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Kim! » Wed May 17, 2017 9:50 am

I'm not going to quote everyone but what you've all said is that non-paying players would feel that the game is easier for paying players. Despite the lack of competition between players, F2P players would be demotivated because paying players can do things faster/easier.

These are seasonal packs, that affects paying players who skipped a month or joined recently as well. Your argument is essentially that you should be able to have everything easy after buying $30-45 worth of seasonal packs - that's not healthy for the game either.

Should they do something to make packs more worthwhile? Sure, but I don't think handing out overpowered skills at legendary (again, in great slots) is a good answer, especially in time limited packs.

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Shiroe
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Re: Darkis's "Around the Water Cooler'' Thread!

Postby Shiroe » Thu May 18, 2017 1:55 am

Heh, for a minute thought "would paying players be happy if 1 Mythical of the skilled item would be included in the package and they only have to fuse/buy their 2nd, 3rd, etc.?", then realized that would 100% sure get (ab)used as a "gem fountain" substitute by most seasonal package buyers, selling that item on the tradehouse instead of using it on their heroes...
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)


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