The demise of PVP

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Feone
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Feone » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:47 am

Eh, I find the strategy part at least somewhat fun. The overal implementation not so much.

Competition is killed by pay for plays + last second before reset rank shuffling, so that doesn't really add anything.
The RNG element needlessly messes with the strategy part, reducing a lot of the fun there.

Most of all though, it's just plain tedious. If you actually want to pay attention and "play" the PVP you're spending almost all your time fighting the UI instead of your opponents.

bowloftoast
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby bowloftoast » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:34 am

There is still a strong element of strategy in the arena game, and when you start understanding the ability-interplay between npcs, you can definitely punch above your weight, which makes for good balance. Gives anyone the opportunity to do well if they apply themselves. Those who knock it seem to be the people who are least engaged in it, and dismissing something out of hand without actually participating, really doesn't have much merit.

I'm just thinking to the future of the Arena, for those who have actually taken the time to learn it. My concern is about a very specific type of team, and what will happen to the quality of Arena play if a large number of players start adopting that kind of line-up. What's enjoyable about PVP now is applying your npc abilities so they counter the opponent's. If a ton of players start using convertible teams moving forward, and every fight just becomes a coin-toss as a result, and everyone has a 50/50 chance of winning, it's going to get pretty boring.

I don't think we're there yet, but I see it trending in that direction

VeNoM0619
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby VeNoM0619 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:00 pm

bowloftoast wrote:Those who knock it seem to be the people who are least engaged in it, and dismissing something out of hand without actually participating, really doesn't have much merit.n


If 99% of the people don't like it, I think that may show some merit that it is flawed? Dismissing those that don't enjoy it, only creates an echo chamber for the 1%. All viewpoints are equal. I've seen a few games destroy over 2/3rds of their player base, because they listened to the top players or whales only.

I am reminded however of an xkcd comic https://xkcd.com/915/ - short story: people will always see "meta" in everything. There will always be those who see a "deep strategy/deeper meaning" even in something that shows poor implementation. They could alter all the abilities, and someone would still say there is balanced and deep strategy.

I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy PvP, it's just that, most don't, for many reasons.

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bloop
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby bloop » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:36 pm

pvp is trash, it was not designed for enjoyment. if it was made for enjoyment things would have changed drastically after the plethora of feedback during the beta.

pvp was designed to extract money from whales. i assume it was a success in that regard given the quantity of gems i make peaks around the last few days of each month.
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bowloftoast
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby bowloftoast » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm

VeNoM0619 wrote:If 99% of the people don't like it, I think that may show some merit that it is flawed? Dismissing those that don't enjoy it, only creates an echo chamber for the 1%. All viewpoints are equal. I've seen a few games destroy over 2/3rds of their player base, because they listened to the top players or whales only.

Lots of people don't like Math. Doesn't mean math is flawed.

PVP here is a bit like chess. There's a steep learning curve, that, once passed, will give a greater appreciation and understanding of the dynamics of the game. Granted, it may not be to everyone's taste or interest. But to make a statement like 'chess sucks' or 'chess is flawed' when you've never really applied yourself to learning it, is simply not a valid position.

If your 'every viewpoint is valid' statement were true, then a Doctor's diagnosis of a medical condition and an electrician's diagnosis would be equally valid. A car review by a professional driver and a car review by someone who has never driven a car would also be equally valid. Don't agree.

There are players from every aspect of this game participating in arena, and as has been stated several times in this thread, you don't have to be a 'whale' to succeed in PVP. You don't need particularly strong npcs or the best gear to do well. There are plenty of players from mid level cities in top 100 every season, because they've taken the time to learn how the npc abilities interplay. Their views on pvp, either positive or negative, are valid.

As for this game, I've always been one of those people lobbying against the devs listening only to a small sliver of the population. Having been here pretty much from the soft launch, I've already watched exactly what you've described, happen, and for those reasons. It would be a mistake to assume that just because a player has a high net worth or is in a top city, that CC actually listens.

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Shiroe
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Shiroe » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:30 am

VeNoM0619 wrote:Perhaps decreasing the fight count for bags, and removing the "1v1" whoever has more power insta-wins. Then implementing a round by round where you activate abilities would be far more engaging..feel free to add to that idea though, but for now its just: "start fight -> skip -> repeat until 10 wins"

Well, the problem with interactive fights is that either it puts more stress on the server, since each tap would have to be sent to the server, verified and responded to in real time or if you don't, you increase the ease of cheating. (well I guess you could have just 1 communication at the end of the fight and then the server responding "OK, client, you said that hero used their ability 20 times? I guess you're banned for cheating now." Instead of when the claims an ability activates when it shouldn't) tl;dr Quick interactivity doesn't really match a low network traffic, low-ish interactivity game and rule 1 of server based gaming is to not trust the client.
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VeNoM0619
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby VeNoM0619 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:51 am

Shiroe wrote:Well, the problem with interactive fights is that either it puts more stress on the server, since each tap would have to be sent to the server, verified and responded to in real time or if you don't, you increase the ease of cheating

Yea, understandable, I was throwing out an idea, however: the trade house is currently designed that after EVERY click it verifies. If they cared about network, they would have a "insta purchase x" system. That would also match buys to sells (instead of making me click buy 700 artifacts, I could just say, buy 700 @ x, let the server do it) Instead its 700 packets to/from the server.


bowloftoast wrote:PVP here is a bit like chess. There's a steep learning curve, that, once passed, will give a greater appreciation and understanding of the dynamics of the game. Granted, it may not be to everyone's taste or interest. But to make a statement like 'chess sucks' or 'chess is flawed' when you've never really applied yourself to learning it, is simply not a valid position.

Telling someone to "learn it, it will be fun when you do", is the worst viewpoint ever... If people don't enjoy it, telling them to keep struggling won't make it better. You've been told "the show is good, if you keep watching past the first season". How often did you actually make it through that first season? Don't expect others to dedicate hours of no enjoyment just to "maybe" find the enjoyment that you did.

If 80% people don't enjoy chess... then they don't enjoy it. There's a reason why you don't see highly competitive chess clubs in every school, it's not for everyone, and only 20% feel its a great game, however chess doesn't want 100% player approval. If CC's goal was to make 1% of its players enjoy PVP, then well done, they deserve 1% of the remaining player base, because people play what they enjoy.

bowloftoast wrote:If your 'every viewpoint is valid' statement were true, then a Doctor's diagnosis of a medical condition and an electrician's diagnosis would be equally valid. A car review by a professional driver and a car review by someone who has never driven a car would also be equally valid. Don't agree.

Doesn't even remotely apply here... there are no "professional gamers" here who have reviews better than others. We are all equal gamers here, or are you saying your opinion is better than everyone elses somehow?

While I agree with the remaining part of your post, that CC doesn't cave in to the whales, the game is stagnating and ONLY looking for whales with its "content" cash grabs every month. Hopefully we can already agree that it's stagnating.

Seeing that you are a vet, it is understandable that you think the game is perfect, but do you actually see NO room for improvement in PVP? Few players take it serious, is this enough to persuade you that something is wrong?

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Shiroe
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Shiroe » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:50 am

VeNoM0619 wrote:
Shiroe wrote:Well, the problem with interactive fights is that either it puts more stress on the server, since each tap would have to be sent to the server, verified and responded to in real time or if you don't, you increase the ease of cheating

Yea, understandable, I was throwing out an idea, however: the trade house is currently designed that after EVERY click it verifies. If they cared about network, they would have a "insta purchase x" system. That would also match buys to sells (instead of making me click buy 700 artifacts, I could just say, buy 700 @ x, let the server do it) Instead its 700 packets to/from the server.

Yes, a system at tradehouse where you can set the max number you want to fill a request/max number you want to buy from an offer with added to that a max/min price or deviation percentage from the current price would be very nice, but as you can see from my formulation, might not be super simple. And about the price matching, such a suggestion has resulted in protests from tradehouse snipers that they like the fact they can find deals on the tradehouse where there's price overlap. (I guess looking for those gives them something to do while waiting for crafts/quests)

bowloftoast wrote:PVP here is a bit like chess. There's a steep learning curve, that, once passed, will give a greater appreciation and understanding of the dynamics of the game. Granted, it may not be to everyone's taste or interest. But to make a statement like 'chess sucks' or 'chess is flawed' when you've never really applied yourself to learning it, is simply not a valid position.

Telling someone to "learn it, it will be fun when you do", is the worst viewpoint ever... If people don't enjoy it, telling them to keep struggling won't make it better. You've been told "the show is good, if you keep watching past the first season". How often did you actually make it through that first season? Don't expect others to dedicate hours of no enjoyment just to "maybe" find the enjoyment that you did.

If 80% people don't enjoy chess... then they don't enjoy it. There's a reason why you don't see highly competitive chess clubs in every school, it's not for everyone, and only 20% feel its a great game, however chess doesn't want 100% player approval. If CC's goal was to make 1% of its players enjoy PVP, then well done, they deserve 1% of the remaining player base, because people play what they enjoy.

Well, it's impossible to please everyone. You'll always have people saying it's too hard, too easy, too complex, too simple for the same thing...
Right now for me PVP is just a quick clickthrough to hopefully average 3 wins, 3 losses per ticket, so about 0.9 bags/day because I'm too busy mastering blueprints, mastering quests, trying to work towards horns quests and a Revive team to spend the time on PVP. Once some of those goals are finished, perhaps I could have more time to make up a list of likely opponent teams and start tryharding switching up things for 7 wins/ticket and/or ranking.

While I agree with the remaining part of your post, that CC doesn't cave in to the whales, the game is stagnating and ONLY looking for whales with its "content" cash grabs every month. Hopefully we can already agree that it's stagnating.

s/"content"/decorations/
With the skills at mythical, the vast majority of seasonal packages are closer to a League of Legends hero skin than to something P2W/paywall like. (and personally I like it that way)

Seeing that you are a vet, it is understandable that you think the game is perfect, but do you actually see NO room for improvement in PVP? Few players take it serious, is this enough to persuade you that something is wrong?

I'm sure there are improvements possible, but for a small-ish game like this it's already not too bad that you can AFK fight for a small prize and tryhard for a bit bigger prize and there's more than 2 viable teams setups, so not just pure power with a bit of RNG sprinkled on top.
And I have no idea which direction improvements should go when likely different people already are of the opinion that it's "too hard, too easy, too complex, too simple" at the same time.
It's kind of like with skilled item teams: plenty of people will think that's too complicated and try for "0%" gear first/instead, while for late game you don't really want to have "0%" gear teams...
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

inVoh
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby inVoh » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:52 am

It's a shame you see people who say pvp sucks as "haven't even tried to learn it". Actually I know exactly how it works and it does suck. It's nowhere close to chess.

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akerson
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby akerson » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:40 am

inVoh wrote:It's a shame you see people who say pvp sucks as "haven't even tried to learn it". Actually I know exactly how it works and it does suck. It's nowhere close to chess.


The biggest issue is people are pretending it's PVP when it's not. There's definitely strategy to it, but there isn't depth. There's no competitiveness. PVP is incredibly binary (debuff vs buff) and there's little interaction outside a few interesting choices and definitely little "outplaying" your opponent. If anything, you could say "you solved my puzzle!" if by puzzle you mean one of say four prebaked teams.

Here's the short and sweet why pvp is dumb:

#1 It was shoehorned in to a game that largely ISNT about competition. There's no real ladder, there's no inherent conflict, and there's no pressure. The crowd that picks up and plays this game is already not the right audience for a PVP system.

#2 There's inherently a ton of useless characters because of the tiered heroes list. 2/3's of the heroes, due to level restrictions and breakchance, can't even be viable.

#3 The system itself is entirely binary only buffs/debuffs, because it's based on an adventuring system that is entirely binary (success/fail).

#4 I get making one side AI controlled so there's always someone to play, but with an "auto play" system you're forever stuck in a terrible game of mastermind.



What they SHOULD have done, which would have been so much more interesting and largely more appealing, was do a PVE weekly/bi-weekly tower grind where they made so many floors you had to get through and you get rewards if you do. The "monsters" then could have more interesting abilities, treat power like a hitpoint pool, and allow a lot more interesting interactions. What if you had oneia healing people, kuro disabling attacks on others, edward jumping in to save his teammates, etc etc. paradise, you could do easy/medium/hard versions where everyone gets to play, and certain items have additional effects for that weekly rotation, just to add some variety to a stale market.

Instead, we have this completely boring, unimaginative slogfest grind that most people just hit play 4-7 times and collect their champ bags. Oh wait, correction. most people can't even be bothered to do that.


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