The demise of PVP

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Shiroe
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Shiroe » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:12 am

akerson wrote:#2 There's inherently a ton of useless characters because of the tiered heroes list. 2/3's of the heroes, due to level restrictions and breakchance, can't even be viable.

Whatever the game, there will always be a "meta" of best fit options and leaving a large percentage of heroes etc. in the dust...

What they SHOULD have done, which would have been so much more interesting and largely more appealing, was do a PVE weekly/bi-weekly tower grind where they made so many floors you had to get through and you get rewards if you do. The "monsters" then could have more interesting abilities, treat power like a hitpoint pool, and allow a lot more interesting interactions. What if you had oneia healing people, kuro disabling attacks on others, edward jumping in to save his teammates, etc etc. paradise, you could do easy/medium/hard versions where everyone gets to play, and certain items have additional effects for that weekly rotation, just to add some variety to a stale market.

I think endless tower was on the roadmap? (if that's still in effect...)
Hmm, power as hitpoints _and_ there are healer heroes? I guess meta for that would be at least 2 of those in the party... (in another game my party of 6 (2 lines) has a selfheal-tank in the front line and a line-heal hero in both front and back line for the endless/survival modes; as long as I have enough damage left to kill the oponents before "timeout" (30 rounds of battle in that case), that's the optimal setup)
And of course within weeks of such a tower mode being added, the spreadsheet will have a sheet with hero abilities vs monster/whatever_you_run_into_in_the_tower abilities completely solved. ;)
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

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akerson
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby akerson » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:03 pm

Shiroe wrote:Whatever the game, there will always be a "meta" of best fit options and leaving a large percentage of heroes etc. in the dust...


While true, that doesn't mean you're wasting a ton of design space. I'm not saying everyone needs to be the same, but you've introduced "common/uncommon/rare" to the meta, with everyone having access to everything. Except instead of being a set of choices, there's 28, and only 12 at best are viable. And of that 12, you only have certain configurations due to how the abilities work. There's plenty of heroes with slightly more interesting abilities (say Albert) who just get outshadowed due to their inherent disadvantage on power, which is your only way to win.

There's several ways to make more interesting hero abilities (why not dynamic conditional buffing?), but ultimately none of that matters.

I think endless tower was on the roadmap? (if that's still in effect...)
Hmm, power as hitpoints _and_ there are healer heroes? I guess meta for that would be at least 2 of those in the party... (in another game my party of 6 (2 lines) has a selfheal-tank in the front line and a line-heal hero in both front and back line for the endless/survival modes; as long as I have enough damage left to kill the oponents before "timeout" (30 rounds of battle in that case), that's the optimal setup)
And of course within weeks of such a tower mode being added, the spreadsheet will have a sheet with hero abilities vs monster/whatever_you_run_into_in_the_tower abilities completely solved. ;)


Endless tower was a thought, never on anyone's radar. There hasn't been new content in a year, there likely won't be any new content.

If you have an auto-run team that can't change between floors, then you still will have discussions about wha'ts the right call. If I design 20 monsters, I can create 200 teams of those monsters, and randomly generate a 25 floor tower with those 200 teams and come up with something for the community to try to pull together to solve. But we're literally never going to get that level of effort of development put into this game.
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I believe a permanent game ban was out of line."

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bowloftoast
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby bowloftoast » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:44 pm

inVoh wrote:It's a shame you see people who say pvp sucks as "haven't even tried to learn it". Actually I know exactly how it works and it does suck. It's nowhere close to chess.

Only comparison I made to Chess is that there is a steep learning curve at the beginning, that, once through, gives a better understanding of the game. I don't think Arena is anything like Chess in terms of play, or quality of play for that matter. Just using it as an example.

I also didn't say 'learn it and you'll like' to whomever inferred that from my previous comment. What I said was, until you've made a legit effort to understand the ins and outs, you're not really in a position to dismiss it out of hand (for the third time).

akerson wrote:Here's the short and sweet why pvp is dumb:

#1 It was shoehorned in to a game that largely ISNT about competition. There's no real ladder, there's no inherent conflict, and there's no pressure. The crowd that picks up and plays this game is already not the right audience for a PVP system.

#2 There's inherently a ton of useless characters because of the tiered heroes list. 2/3's of the heroes, due to level restrictions and breakchance, can't even be viable.

#3 The system itself is entirely binary only buffs/debuffs, because it's based on an adventuring system that is entirely binary (success/fail).

#4 I get making one side AI controlled so there's always someone to play, but with an "auto play" system you're forever stuck in a terrible game of mastermind.


Fair comment, and accurate, but it is what it is. It's definitely not a dedicated pvp in the true sense, but this is, after all, a crafting game, and that's just a mini-game within it. I'd definitely like to see more, and varied options for side-play, and better access to useful items as rewards.

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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Dred0 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:42 pm

I don't really care about PVP, other than auto attacking to get my bags and crown jewels. I would not, however, be opposed to more work being done on it, because there are some that like it, and it may get me more interested in it. There probably does need to be more reward for those that want to put time into it, over those that auto attack.

One change I would like to see is the removal of crown jewels from PVP, with a more single player focussed reward in its place. Move the expected crown jewels reward to a town group activity like raiding. Keep the town focussed rewards in town focussed activities, so that people who really want to just avoid PVP all together don't feel obliged to partake "for the good of the city".

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Prometheus
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Prometheus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:11 am

From my experience in PvP since beta, I've seen how PvP went from terrible at launch with many bugs, to interesting for a while and then it went completely off with the introduction of the 2 P2W heroes which are Lorelei/Charles in my opinion.

I have been fighting for the #1 spot for a while with full primal myths but with no Lorelei or Charles, after all I realised that if you have one of them and a nice debuff team with some primal myths, you can eclipse easily the opponent with no Lorelei or Charles. I only came #1 once which was a miracle.

Also, I've noticed a growing interest of "tanking" in the top 10 which means no attacking your citymate or giving your citymate/friend points by losing against him on purpose or just skipping him. Cloudcade needs to stop this in some ways.

There is clearly no point on trying to win anything on PvP other than getting the CJs, which are currently useless for endgame cities as ONCE AGAIN endgame cities are past-content, and getting a bag/day or x1.5bag/day with a cleared victory. Also, as bowl said PvP is now based on: guess the opponent's trap! Is it a debuff debuff or a buff buff or a debuff buff or buff debuff or none?

To make the long story short, I recommend running for Top1 if you have Lorelei or Charles or both, have friends or citymates that could help you gaining points, primal myths and a good strategy. I'm thinking on posting my guide on foruns based on my experience since beta, since there isn't much to win in PvP anyways.

The decay of PvP is REAL unless CC does something about it, more and more people will lose interest on PvP. What makes it even more ridiculous and funny, is that PvP was so overhyped at launch and the amount of bugs on it was ridiculous. I remember players using a "mirror" glitch where you could battle yourself and exploit bags/points and CJs.

Please CC give us something interesting to use our primal myths/myths in. If CvC(maybe it's the next big thing) will use the same mechanics/RNG and if it's P2W based, then anybody would predict the outcome of it even new players.

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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Speadie » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:12 pm

i dont have primal myths nor city friends to help out, managed 8th one month but the fact people can "gem to win" prevents any chance of finishing in top 5. PVP can be interesting but needs an improvement in structure. Guessing the opponents strategy is part of the fun imo, but its easy to overcome as u can just play them in free play first.


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